Elderly Woman Drowns in Care Home, Recorded as Natural Death

The company logo of Watami Care Homes.

The company logo of Watami Care Homes.

The Watami Group is headed by Christian philanthropist Miki Watanabe, who has used some of the profits from his successful restaurant chain to found a number of charities, including food programs for the elderly and free nursing-homes. As Japan becomes the fastest aging industrial nation in the world, how to take care of the needs of the elderly and, more importantly, how to afford a decent standard of care for an aging population which is starting to outweigh the young, has become a urgent concern.

When neither state welfare nor families themselves can afford the rising costs of elder-care, the Watami Group does offers important services to the community. A recent story revealing the death of a female patient due to neglect left netizens shocked, however, to find out that the standards of private care for the elderly might actually be dangerously low.

From Livedoor:

A woman died of drowning in a care home managed by the Watami Group , the institution said she “died of natural causes”

A female nursing-care resident in Itabashi, Tokyo, died whilst being bathed by a member of staff – It has recently been revealed that a female patient (74 at the time) who’s motor skills had been impaired by Parkinson’s disease died of drowning after being left alone in the bath for over an hour and a half by an attendant last February, in “Rest Villa Akasaka”, a fee-paying elder-care home in Itabashi, Tokyo, operated by Watami Nursing Care Home, part of the Watami Group which manages a chain of izakayas (Ota ward, Tokyo).

According to the woman’s eldest daughter (47), she had been diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease in 2009 and was entrusted to the institution in December 2010. Since the end of last January, she repeatedly fell while in the institution’s care.

This accident happened on the February 16 2012. The woman was put in the bath at about 14:15, and she was found with her heart stopped at around 15:40. The care-home’s service guide, based on the Nursing Insurance Law , contained rules like “if it is necessary considering the condition of the patient, careers will wash their body and shampoo their hair”, but despite this the staff member did not check on the woman’s condition once during her bath.

An example of bathing facilities at a care home operated by Watami.

An example of bathing facilities at a care home operated by Watami.

After the incident, the care-home told the bereaved family things like “Her heart stopped during the 10 minutes she was left out of sight. She very probably died of natural causes.” When the Takashimadaira Police Department looked at the care home’s security camera though, they found out that these statements were untrue. They determined that the cause of death was drowning. Following this, the institution gave explanations like “there were other people taking baths and there were not enough staff”.

The woman’s eldest daughter cried, saying “I can’t bear the regret of having put my mother in an uncaring institution”.

The Takashimadaira Police Department said that the nursing home was not at fault, but they would investigate the conditions and the staff system at the time. The Watami PR representative said that “Watami will fully cooperate with the police investigation and we want to moderate [negative] comments”. [Wada Hiroyuki]

Comments from Livedoor:

ノルウェージャンフォレストキャットさん:

That’s the ultimate blackness

ジョフロイネコさん:

Murdering idiots

ウンピョウさん:

This is a black nursing-home

ぬこさん:

Hoooooorrible

スナネコさん:

It’s to the point where telling the truth would have been even worse

ピクシーボブさん:

I go to the Hello Work every day to look for a job. Watami is the only one I’d want to dodge.w

イエネコさん:

Definitely THE black Watami

バリニーズさん:

Asking for nursing care with low staff costs is the same as asking to murder people. If you want to get rid of an burdensome person, this is perfect.

ラグドールさん:

This type of accident was bound to happen if they were working their staff full throttle in the same way they manage their izakayas.

クロアシネコさん:

INSANE, Watami

アジアゴールデンキャットさん:

I think they’re definitely guilty!

サーバルさん:

How many will they murder before they’re satisfied?

ジャガーさん:

She was “left to chance” rather than “left alone” w Where the hell do elderly women spend over an hour and a half in the bath! w

シャムさん:

A nursing-care home by Watami probably would not be a decent place….

ボブキャットさん:

Watami is not only killing its employees but also its customers…

バリニーズさん:

If you go to an izakaya, they put so much responsibility on their employees that it pushes them to suicide. It’s dangerous to trust them with nursing care. It’s a horrible company!

トンキニーズさん:

SCARY! I suppose they usually left them like that on their own for over an hour and a half. This is not what you pay more than 200,000 yen a month for!

サバトラさん:

This is the modern day version of abandoning an old lady in a mountain [“ubasute“]. It’s because there is a demand for it now.

アメリカンワイヤーヘアさん:

I hate it how it seems like there’ll be a crop of people put in care homes because of this news…

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  • Brett

    Seems like Japanese police are about as useful as Korean police.

    “.. Police Department… found out that these statements were untrue. They determined that the cause of death was drowning. “…. “Police Department said the the nursing home was not at fault.”

    What?

    • chucky3176

      Please leave Korea out of this. When it comes to crime statistics, Japan is pretty much unique in the world, on how they count crime as crime. Japan is way too lax, while Korea is way too strict. For instance, in Korea, a woman was recently sued for accidentally stepping on someone’s toe in the dark, in a movie theater, while looking for her seat, injuring the victim. The court awarded the victim $300, and the guilty was charged with assault. This was all done through mail. The assault record on the guilty woman will be registered for seven years. In Japan on the other hand, they often dismiss obvious murders as ‘accidents’. I quite certain the numbers are deliberately manipulated to make the crime stats look good.

      • Rutim

        Yeah, surely. From all of you expertises I didn’t expect that you’re forensic science PhD writing dissertations about how the number of crimes whitewashes Japan in the eyes of the whole world and blackmails peaceful South Koreans who while being the most peaceful nation in the world commit around 2,5 times more murders a year than twice as big bloodthirsty nation on the isles…

        Way to go! You should work for Kim’s dynasty and showing the whole world the truth that Korean #FFFFFF is whiter than Japananese #FFFFFF.

        • chucky3176

          It depends on how each country defines the definition of crime, or murder in this case. In Japan, many of the crimes that we would define as “murder”, are usually explained away as “accidents”. There have been many cases recently that has shown what I say is true. I’m not saying Japan is dangerous or anything, I’m just saying that their true extent of their stats are not really believable.

          • Rutim

            Isn’t comprehensive data like the ones published by UN made on the same bases? Like UNODO reports?

            And the number of murders in Japan is right now hitting the rock bottom according the records made after the war.

          • chucky3176

            For instance, Japanese stats do not consider non negligent manslaughter as part of the murder rate. Japanese police also ignore many murder cases if they cannot easily solve them. Instead they are chalked up to ‘accidents’. If the police do not find bodies of murder victims, even if there’s strong suspicion of murder, the police consider them as non event. No body found, then there’s no murder. Murder suicides are also not considered murder in Japan. So if a woman throws off her children from a tall building then jumps to her death, it’s considered family suicide, not murder as in most other countries. Regarding rapes, most rapes go unreported and ignored. Again, I’m not saying Japan is really dangerous, on the contrary, it’s a very comparatively very safe society compared to the West. You just can’t believe their sanitized crime stats, it’s probably higher, as well as keeping in mind that statistics comparing nations may have flaws due to the way the numbers are processed between different nations.

          • besudesu

            Do you want to back this up with some facts? Sounds dangerously like fiction to me.

          • chucky3176

            Sillian and besudesu, here’s one article quoting the former Japanese policemen.

            http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9

            I have more, which I’m trying to relocate more articles I’ve read in the past again, including the case of 20 year old Korean American Scott Kang, who was brutally murdered in Tokyo in 2010. The Japanese police ruled that it wasn’t accident when Scott fell down a stairs. But the police had the camera video which showed Scott getting robbed and beat up by a group of men in an elevator and getting dragged out. Unfortunately the video did not record the actual murder. But you would think this is at least little bit suspicious enough to warrant an investigation. But no. The police also refused to do an autopsy on the body, refused to interview the men who are known in the area. And then they declared the case as an ‘accident’ with no evidence of foul play within matter of days after the death. Japan has the world’s top number of “unexplained deaths”. I think it’s because Japanese don’t like to deal with unpleasant things leading to loss of face, so the best thing for them is to just pretend they never happened. I would say it’s their biggest cultural weakness.

          • Rutim

            And how’s that in other countries? Any Korean policeman writing a book about police and critcize them?

          • Sillian

            You are definitely correct that just collecting and putting numbers from different nations together in one table and calling voila doesn’t usually work smoothly. Anybody who has worked with esp. crime stats can quickly point that out. But you would have to explain where you base your opinion about those alleged standards or tendencies in Japan.

          • Kai

            I’ve read similar comments that Chucky is saying here from Jake Adelstein and on sites like Sankaku Complex (NSFW).

        • hjohn5929

          atstok

      • Brett

        Korean woman calls police and says a man is attacking her and is trying to kill her. Police ask, “are you sure?” Woman dies and is cut into little pieces.

        • JJ

          I’m not sure what your point is. Police incompetence for sure, but that was considered as a heinous murder, not an accident.

          • Brett

            The point is police incompetence. They could have possibly prevented the murder if they hadn’t waited hours to go after her.

        • dk2020

          I think that was just an extreme case of incompetence by police thats why it was on the news and the public outrage, I don’t think they deal with that kind of situation everyday .. you should watch memories of murder to get an idea how the police work.. at least in Korea you don’t deal with police brutality and the prison industrial complex .. you know the US incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world? The government spends more on it’s prisons than its education ..

      • iliketowritearticles

        “When it comes to crime statistics…Japan is way too lax.”….says one crime just to generalize the entire system of Japan is similar to this.

    • Rutim

      I’ve heard about people drowned without anyone’s help, accidentaly. ChinaSmack was full of such reports recently. A teaspoon of water might be as deadly as the whole ocean if you’re unlucky sometimes…

      • Brett

        The point is that the nursing home left a woman with motor-control problems unattended in a tub and she drowned. That makes it the nursing home’s fault.

        • Kate

          Elderly abuse and negligence is fairly common in homes. I worked in a state home when I was a freshman in college and saw many awful things. It was a very, very messed up place. The employees and the residents…..just crazy. We had one old man who had Hep C and would pop popcorn and then jack off in it and try to get others to eat it. CNAs would beat some residents or leave then in urine and feces for hours. It was pretty awful yup. One day I came in and some one had dumped a whole bag of diseased, bloody clothes on a vent in my work area. I said “fuck It I quit” and walked out. Yeah they’re all awful, horrible cesspools.

  • linette lee

    Democracy and Freedom of speech……….. what?????

    “After a conservative government rose to power in South Korea in 2008, it became a crime to praise or sympathize with North Korea in any way. In 2010, more than 150 South Koreans were reportedly questioned and 60 charged for praising North Korea.”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/south-korean-man-charged-crime-praising-north-korea-article-1.988659

    • Sillian

      Now how is that even relevant here?

    • dk2020

      oh beeswax .. thats why your lips are all greasy looking .. what do you have against koreans?

    • Brett

      Like I said on chinaSMACK, any chance you get to insult Korea, you take it. Only this time, you made your own chance… Ridiculous.

  • Pokochaaaan

    Why are there are so many korean or chinese widespreading bad rumors about japan, even though they have never visited the country, even in english-based website?

    • Sillian

      Who else do you see than chucky here? Obviously he’s a Korean nationalist and he’s been arguing with Japanese nationalists a lot and picked up lots of ‘ammo’. I often disagree with him but I think he’s at least ‘respected’ as a debater in a grudging way by some. Did you also think about why there are so many ‘netouyo’ spreading ‘bad rumors’ about Korea? You shouldn’t see only what you want to see.

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

        “Who else do you see than chucky here?”

        – Cleo
        – “guest”
        – Lillian / Lily
        – Mr. Ed

        His point is that there are plenty of Chinese and Korean nationalists talking sh*t about Japan on the English-language web, but there aren’t many Japanese doing vice versa. I certainly haven’t noticed any regular Japanese commenters on this site or any of its affiliated sites.

        The only anti-Chinese comments I see on a regular basis on these sister sites are those of disgruntled Western expats and the occasional Korean taking potshots at linette. :D

        And likewise, the only anti-Korean comments I see on a regular basis on these sister sites (perhaps aside from myself) are those of disgruntled Western expats and linette…

        • ChuckRamone

          Go to WSJ Blogs and Marmot’s Hole for anti-Korea comments. You’ll find plenty. Also, Yahoo! Japan – the whole site is anti-Korea comments.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            I don’t read WSJ Blogs, so I can’t comment on that.

            I just looked up rjkoehler.com on Alexa. It ranks 6,988 in South Korea, 214,102 in the United States, and doesn’t even register in any other country. Moreover, 51.7% of its visitors are from South Korea, 18.0% are from the United States, and, again, no other single country even registers. So while I’ve never visited Marmot’s Hole, I’m fairly sure it’s not Japanese making these comments.

            I’m pretty sure Yahoo! Japan is in Japanese, not English. Correct me if I’m mistaken.

          • ChuckRamone

            What’s the difference if the smack talk is in Japanese or English? You said you haven’t seen any Japanese talking smack. What are the stats for visitors to the JapanCrush series of sites?

            I just looked it up:
            Visitors by Country for Japancrush.com

            Country

            Percent of Visitors

            China Flag China

            56.2%

            France Flag France

            14.0%

            United States Flag United States

            5.6%

            United Kingdom Flag United Kingdom

            4.1%

            It looks like they don’t even visit that many English-language sites about their country, so how could they be commenting?

          • Sillian

            We are clearly talking about English language websites. If we include Japanese websites, it doesn’t even make sense. JC itself covers japanese netizens talking smack….

          • ChuckRamone

            Okay, but still. According to the Alexa webstats, Most of the visitors to JapanCrush are Chinese, French, American and British. He said there are plenty of Korean nationalists posting here. Once again, someone is just talking out of their ass and making stuff up.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            As Sillian pointed out, the original comment was a Japanese person wondering why Chinese and Koreans are talking sh*t about Japan **on an English-language site**. No one ever claimed Japanese people don’t talk sh*t in Japanese on Japanese-language websites, and likewise no one mentioned Chinese and Koreans talking sh*t about Japanese in their respective languages on their respective websites because that was never what the discussion was about in the first place.

            JapanCRUSH has very low traffic (sorry besudesu!) and so its Alexa stats are rather arbitrary [ranks 160,143 worldwide, regional stats: 24,005 China (56.2% of visitors) | 33,488 France (14.0% of visitors) | 99,021 UK (4.1% of visitors) | 366,707 USA (5.6% of visitors)], which apparently suggests there are a lot of unregistered lurkers from China and France who don’t actually comment.

            KoreaBANG has more traffic (ranks 106,920 worldwide), and its primary visitors are from South Korea (39.5%), China (28.9%), the US (8.0%), France (7.1%), the UK (2.7%), Indonesia (1.2%), and Vietnam (0.7%). Japan, again, fails to even register.

            ChinaSMACK of course has far more traffic (ranks 18,860 worldwide), and to save time, Japan once again fails to register, and there are at least 23 countries that rank ahead of it.

            Suffice to say, there are clearly more Chinese and Koreans visiting these sister sites than Japanese, although of course no statistics can be given on the actual commenters themselves (who are actually quite few in number, probably not exceeding a couple dozen, which is practically equivalent to zero).

          • ChuckRamone

            Your sources conveniently only prove, but not disprove, what you have to say. Let’s also not forget that JapanCrush is much newer to the scene.

            We have Koreans not registring on the Alexa stats for JapanCrush, and hitting barely 4% on ChinaSmack. So, they are mostly visiting KoreaBang, to smack talk the Japanese?

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            Erm, I think you may have made a typo, or something.

            Why would I want to disprove what I have to say? *scratches head*

            I’m not sure what JapanCrush being newer has to do with anything. I already pointed out that it has far less traffic than the other sites. What’s your point?

          • ChuckRamone

            I’m talking about your source, Alexa. I used the very same source to disprove what you’re saying, but you said the stats don’t count to prove that not many Korean nationalists are posting at JapanCrush, but your stats count when talking about KoreaBang. JapanCrush is newer, so it doesn’t have much statistical information behind it, which is along the same lines as what you’re saying – no traffic. Who knows what they will look like two years from now?

            It looks like Koreans mostly visit KoreaBang. There are no stats for them at JapanCrush and they are ~4% at ChinaSmack. So, again, I ask, where are the Korean nationalists you’re talking about? Are they smack talking the Japanese over at KoreaBang? I don’t see that many Japan-related articles over there. I think you’re mostly noticing Chucky and in your mind, that equals hordes of Korean nationalists saying bad things about the poor, innocent Japanese who just want peace.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            I said Chinese AND Koreans. Meaning the COMPOSITE.

            I don’t know whether Cleo and Lillian are Chinese and/or Korean, and I don’t care, because that wasn’t my point. Obviously Koreans hate Japanese (one only need visit koreaBANG or even YouTube to witness this), so I’m obviously not creating some kind of fictitious myth that Koreans don’t like Japanese.

            You can’t convince me of the nonexistence of something I’ve personally encountered dozens of times.

          • ChuckRamone

            And the Japanese obviously hate Koreans. What’s your point? You’re making it sound like all Koreans hate Japanese, and the Japanese are just innocent victims. I’m trying to point out your bias. You’re clearly a Japanophile.

            BTW, my wife is Japanese. I like Japan, but I’m not blind to its faults. I’m Korean American and I think Koreans are often shitty. But my main point when I post on sites like this is to counter the bias and trolling of people who are obviously biased against Korea and for Japan and make ridiculous declarations. I notice the exact opposite of what you do: lots of people, Japanese and not, hate Korea and are all over the Internet talking smack. I know I’m probably biased just like you. I just wish people like you would try harder to be objective.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            You’re seriously missing the point here. What we’re discussing is Koreans/Chinese going out of their way to talk sh*t about Japanese on the English-language web. Japanese people talking sh*t to each other in Japanese has nothing to do with that, and anti-Korean comments made in English by anyone who isn’t Japanese *also* has nothing to do with that.

            You may disagree with the validity of using this measurement to draw any conclusions, but it is a fairly verifiable fact that the English-language web has far more Chinese and Korean netizens than Japanese netizens, and of course this manifests in more Chinese/Korean-originated anti-Japanese comments than vice versa.

            You could say it’s an issue of manners, class, and civility. Some people think talking sh*t about someone behind his back is far worse than saying it straight to his face, but that’s an entirely separate discussion.

          • ChuckRamone

            No, I get what you’re saying. ‘More Koreans and Chinese are trolling the English-language web to talk about Japan. Japanese don’t do this toward China and Korea.’ But I think you’re coming to that conclusion because of your bias and blindsides. Like I said, I notice just the opposite. I think your argument doesn’t hold up here, at JapanCrush. Where does it hold up? You mentioned YouTube and some other sites. I see lots of anti-Korea stuff in English there. Also in Japanese. I also see lots of anti-China, anti-Japan, anti-Vietnam, etc. There are lot of trolls on the Internet in general. I don’t think there are more Chinese and Korean ones, whether they’re posting in English or not. Why does it matter if it’s in English anyway? Does it mean these people are somehow nastier, more determined to troll? Even in English though, I don’t think your argument holds water. There are probably roughly proportionate numbers, or percentage per population, of trolls from each country.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            Again, I refer you to the original comment:

            “Why are there are so many korean or chinese widespreading bad rumors about japan, even though they have never visited the country, even in english-based website?”

            That was the dude’s original question. I suppose it depends on whether you interpret the last clause to be a minor afterthought, or the main crux of his point, which is that for this to be proliferated on a supposedly neutral medium isn’t fair play.

            Anyway, you’re Korean. dk2020’s Korean. chucky3176’s Korean. Cleo and linette are Chinese. Hell, even I’m half-Chinese. But I don’t know anyone here who’s Japanese. Korean nationalists seem to think the English-language Internet is teeming with Japanese nationalists, but honestly, I’m just not seeing that. You can find some dude on Twitter, or some Japanese nationalist channel on YouTube, but the fact remains that it takes some sort of concerted effort to find them, whereas Chinese nationalist comments proliferate by the boatload on The Economist and even anti-Japanese comments made by South Koreans flooded Gangnam Style for the first month or so of its popularity in the West. They come to you—you don’t need to intentionally track them down.

          • ChuckRamone

            For me, the last clause is somewhat auxiliary to the main point: why are there so many Chinese and Korean nationalist trolls (even on English-language websites)?

            I don’t consider myself and dk2020 to be Korean nationalists. I think we’re pretty reasonable posters – maybe I’m biased though. Chucky is nationalist, though he has his moments of somewhat reasonable posts. You don’t notice that on the Economist there are Japanese posting in English? That’s how I found that TedYokohama dude. I saw one of his comments on a site – I don’t remember which, I think it was CNN – and I went to his Twitter account. This was a couple years ago but I remembered his Twitter name.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest you and dk2020 are Korean nationalists. I meant that you two are Korean. The point was that there are many Koreans and Chinese here (and on the sister sites), but no discernible Japanese. If there were dozens of TedYokohama’s spamming these sites with anti-Chinese/anti-Korean rhetoric, *then* there would be an analogous parallel (not to you and dk2020, but to the nationalists).

            I’ve spent plenty of time (too much time, really) reading comments on The Economist, and while I’ve noticed many, many “wumao”, I can’t say I’ve noticed many Japanese commenters (nor Korean, for that matter).

          • ChuckRamone

            Perhaps you’re right, and perhaps you’re biased. It’s almost impossible to determine. I think there’s also a reluctance or shyness on the part of Japanese to speak English which might extend to the Web. They’re a little inhibited about it, even though most of them speak and understand it pretty well.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            Well, I personally prefer shy people (which I associate with humility and modesty) to bold, brash people (which I associate with arrogance and cockiness), so I have no doubt that their different personalities plays a role in how I view them.

            But this isn’t unique to me. People worldwide hate Americans due to the perception that they’re loud, brash, obnoxious, and arrogant. Incidentally, most non-Asians tend to think positively of Asians, especially the Japanese, in part because they perceive them as being quiet and unobtrusive (i.e., shy).

          • EightNineBall

            Agreed. I think it’s important to differentiate between who is actually Korean, Chinese or Japanese. There’s plenty of blind accusations being flung around but I think majority of these bad mouthers aren’t from any of those nationalities. What Matt was referring to with the Economist, CNN and similar sites was something like this:

            http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/755268.shtml

            Note the complete absence of Koreans in these sites, that’s saying something. :) Matt should actually take note who started that whole mess.

            Compared to what the netizens from these 3 sites are saying, Chinese shouldn’t get so distraught over what the Japanese say since it’s hardly comparable.

            Not that I think the user Disgusted is Japanese. Nor do I think many of the Chinese posters are actually Chinese.

            As you put it, there are trolls in every country. No need to single out specific countries.

          • ChuckRamone

            Here’s a great example of a presumably Japanese person who has an entire Twitter account devoted to smack-talking Korea IN ENGLISH: https://twitter.com/TedYokohama

            I’m sure I could find more examples. I’m sure I could also find examples of Chinese and Koreans doing this against Japan. But is it really possible to quantify the numbers per country? Are you absolutely sure of what you’re saying? I’m really opposed to people making declarative, defamatory statements about an entire group of people as if they were facts.

          • chucky3176

            Cleo and Lillian are Chinese. Defiintely, Cleo is Chinese, he’s been very pro PRC China. That leaves me, Sillian, and dk, as the most active Korean members in all three boards. Big horde of Koreans there. woopie..

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            “…and I don’t care, because that wasn’t my point. Obviously Koreans hate Japanese (one only need visit koreaBANG or even YouTube to witness this), so I’m obviously not creating some kind of fictitious myth that Koreans don’t like Japanese.

            You can’t convince me of the nonexistence of something I’ve personally encountered dozens of times.”

          • chucky3176

            I’m sorry but you’re way off buddy. Go to Youtube, and it’s a cesspool of Japanese people’s anti Korean videos. I don’t even know where you get this. Koreans are not really active in Youtube with anti Japanese videos. But they may comment negatively in reply sections in reaction to those videos.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            I don’t watch those kinds of videos, and I’m not talking about those kinds of videos. I’m talking about regular videos that normal people watch, like music videos and mainstream historical documentaries. Obviously there’s a lot of weird kinky sh*t on YouTube, but I’m talking about mainstream stuff.

            For example, I was watching this one YouTube video of Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony performed by some Japanese orchestra and choir [titled: “Beethoven – Symphony No.9 (10000 Japanese)”], and this one Korean dude made a whole bunch (literally dozens) of obnoxious anti-Japanese remarks about how the Japanese are evil and that they shouldn’t be allowed to perform Beethoven’s symphony because they represent evil and blah blah blah. This is just one example of many I’ve encountered. I ain’t looking for this sh*t—it finds me. I’ve watched many videos of Koreans performing (Western) classical music (not specifically because they’re Korean; that’s just incidental) and have yet to see reciprocal inflammatory statements. I’m sure they exist, but my point is that I haven’t been unsuspectingly inundated by them. I’m also not saying that this is to be blamed on all Koreans, but merely that Korean nationalism on the English-language web is more apparent than Japanese nationalism. I think this is a relatively fair statement.

          • Sillian

            “Korean nationalism on the English-language web is more apparent than Japanese nationalism.”

            I find that to be true, generally speaking. dim mak explained it well. Whatever English language websites you go, there are very few English-speaking Japanese from Japan. Youtube was mentioned because that’s an internationally popular website where a relatively high number of Japanese nationalists are active producing anti-Korean videos and running such channels speaking some English. In terms of devotion and professionalism, Japanese nationalists would find it very unfair to be ignored… Some anti-Korean Japanese blogs in Japanese are run almost like a media outlet with huge traffic… You and Korean netizens’ perspectives are supposed to be very different because it’s so easy for many Korean netizens to read Japanese internet in Japanese and get pissed off…xD this internet feud between the two countries has been going almost for a decade… so many things….

          • chucky3176

            That’s very true. Some of the stuff I read in Japanese makes my blood boil. I keep my own monitoring of their web sites and often post their translations in English and Korean. I’m certainly no fan of Japan. And I admit that. Their comments have drove me to be a nationalist. I’m not going to lie and pretend that I’m unbiased, unlike this clown named Matt who is obviously either a Japanophile or a Japanese nationalist himself.

          • Sillian

            It’s important to cut the infinite circle of hate tho… Argue when necessary but don’t forget that there are just many normal people you can make friends with in any country…

          • dim mak

            that’s dumb man

            if you go around reading angry comments of course it’ll make your blood boil

            Don’t be a nationalist because of damaged pride, be a nationalist because it’s the only logical recourse for anyone who considers themselves a patriot

          • chucky3176

            No, not because of any damaged pride. But because of stuff like this, where all 351 reply comments don’t have any dissenting comments, not one:

            http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/cm/main?d=20130118-00000028-cnippou-kr&s=lost_points&o=desc

          • dim mak

            so what

            even if every single japanese alive was like that the point of nationalism is to promote what’s best for your country, not being reactionary when offended

            this is why the average “nationalist” is concerned with immaterial nonsense, issues of national ego, foreign perceptions etc when the actual threat that endangers nationalism everywhere is liberal western ideologies

            the rational thing to do is to form a collective front against those ideologies, we don’t even need to like each other

            besides, this is yahoo japan
            it’s a lot like english yahoo, full of old conservatives
            you should read their twitter sometimes

          • chucky3176

            How do you know they are all Korean, and not Chinese or Japanese or whatever, pretending to be Korean to make them be more hated?

            I don’t know what you’re ranting about, because just like you just said, in other way around, whenever I visit Korea related videos on Youtube, it’s always the Japanese commentators in Japanese writing – which proves they are mostly Japanese, talking whole crap about those Koreans when it has nothing to do with Japan. You can’t possibly know this because your interest mainly lies with Japanese stuff, but not Korean.

          • dk2020

            japancrush has only been out a couple of months though .. what about russiaslam and indoboom? .. wow, not that many posters out of those numbers on kbang or jcrush ..

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            Sadly, Russia and Indonesia don’t seem to inspire much interest. Aside from a few Indonesians and Malaysians talking sh*t about each other, there isn’t much fighting or hostility on those sites. I guess you could say at least it’s peaceful…

          • dim mak

            It’s all demographics
            People like me and chuck and others are able to represent our native countries in English cuz we’re immigrants

            Japan has few recent immigrants overseas, and even the ones they have speak awful English and often end up going back to Japan. The others like Japanese-Americans/Brazilians etc are so naturalized they’ve lost all sense of ethnic nationalism and pretty much act like whites

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            Certainly. No disagreement there.

          • chucky3176

            The International English scores favor Korea over Japan, Matt. But that doesn’t count anyway. Because most Koreans posting here are all Koren Americans or South Korean who lived in both sides of the ocean extensively. How many totally native Koreans from Korea with poor English do you think posts here? There are none, just as the Japanese.

            If you know this, then why are you peddling the suggestion that Japanese are being targeted unfairly, when it’s been shown that they give out as just as they receive in their own language? Japanese people speaking shit about other countries in Japanese, are entirely relevant here, because you are trying to give off the impression that they are totally innocent. And let’s look at your posting history. You are not much better. All you’re doing is pretending that you’re unbiased, but you’ve been one of the most biased commentators here and Koreabang, with 100% of comments on Korea being negative. How are you any different from me?

          • Sillian

            I think Matt actually admitted his anti-Korean bias in one of these posts here…

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            I really haven’t even been specifically referring to you, since I haven’t been offended by any of your posts lately (maybe the anti-Chinese ones to Linette, though I understand you were just trying to get under her skin). The main people I had in mind were folks like Cleo, Lillian, and, like I said, various people I’ve encountered browsing the Internet (many of whom were, yes, Korean). The difference between myself and these people (and you may include yourself in this group if you wish) is that my “hostility” extends only to individuals who I have encountered firsthand, unlike lots of these folks whose hatred targets entire categories of people rather than uniquely offensive individuals.

            Anyway, even though people I engage in arguments with tend to automatically fill in the gaps and assume I’ve made pro-Takeshima, pro-Senkaku, anti-CCP, and whatever else comments, I really haven’t, and anyone can verify this if they chose to spend the time doing so. I don’t give a damn where the islands are allocated to—I just hate the type of jingoistic blowhards who think the islands indubitably and unquestionably belong to their country. I also don’t have any personal problem with the CCP, which is something I’m sure distances me from both Japanese and Koreans alike. I also happen to have immensely enjoyed the Korean films I’ve seen, and conversely haven’t watched much Japanese video media, so I’d say that this proves I’m responding specifically to nationalism and not some intrinsic hostility toward the very concept of Korean culture.

          • x1sfg

            Stop overanalyzing everything, you’re nuking it. People are just trolling or cowards hiding behind a computer. People just start shit because they’re assholes, like most people in general. Nationality is moot when it comes to assholes, it knows no barriers

          • Sillian

            That makes sense.

          • Kai

            Interesting discussion here, guys, relevant to my interests.

            1. Alexa is notoriously flawed for making traffic comparisons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexa_Internet People use it pretty much because it is free and public, but stats and comparisons using it need to be taken with quite a bit of salt.

            2. Demographic data on countries indicate source of traffic, not nationality or ethnicity of the visitor.

            3. For an English-language website like jC or any in our family of sites, it’s safe to assume the average visitor and especially regular reader speaks English. While there is a meaningful subset of non-English “locals” who might use the site to practice their English, there are a whole lot of Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans who don’t speak English and couldn’t be bothered reading this site. It just doesn’t make sense for them. Why would they read what they can already read much easier in their own language?

            4. Generally, chances are that anyone who comments regularly in half-decent English is either a “foreigner” (to any of these countries) or someone who might be ethnically CJK but otherwise has lived abroad in a Western country extensively. It’s also safe to say that while overseas CJKs and the CJKs back home often have similarities, they certainly have their differences, having grown up in significantly different environments and thus socialized quite differently, for better or worse.

            5. It is my personal impression that there are a lot more overseas Koreans and Chinese than Japanese, and they happen to be more vocal. When I think of immigrant East Asians in Western countries, it’s usually Chinese (including those from Taiwan/Hong Kong) and Koreans. It’s much rarer to run into recently immigrated Japanese, and those that are, tend to have been in the host country for generations versus the first or second-generation immigrants of Chinese or Korean descent. I don’t know why this is, but it’s something I’ve mentioned to Beth before in idle chit chat.

            6. Commenters are people who care to express themselves, and they’re often a very small minority of the overall readership/audience. They are significant and influential, but only to a certain limit.

            Hope this information helps the discussion.

          • Sillian

            There are occasional Japanese posters on marmot but the main user base is western expats and it’s run by western expats and korean amerians.

        • Linette lee

          Very true. Matt is the only one who dare to tell the truth of what’s happening.

          • Linette lee

            I see so many crazies attacking chinese making nonconstructive criticism and lies. Most of these crazies are koreans and disgruntled westerners mostly americans. Guess what i will say to them?

        • Sillian

          “So many Korean or Chinese” still sounds weird when there is one Korean guy. Cleo..xD I suppose talking random bs isn’t taken seriously. On these sister sites I have seen one hardcore Japanese nationalist before but he was short-lived. There are generally not many English-speaking Japanese from Japan. They are concentrated in a few sites. YouTube is one of the places where you can find many j nationalists who speak some English. Chucky seems to comment wherever arguments relevant to Korea are involved. JC doesn’t seem to have any real j nationalists but many of the articles are relevant.

        • dk2020

          Well I’m in the middle, like I’ve said I love and respect Japan and Japanese people because I have kazoku but I don’t like Japanese nationalists because they don’t like me .. in reality though they don’t say shit so they don’t really bother me .. I seriously dislike China because they’re communist and their politics, they are bullies with the disputes with the Philippines and Vietnam which I have an affinity with those countries too .. ultimately though I want a better understanding and learn so I can grow, all this trolling from all sides is entertaining though ..

        • chucky3176

          lol.. that’s only because the Japanese are not very good speaking English. They are very insular as a country and thought pattern.

          What you just said, means nothing, considering that if you are able to read Japanese, then you would realize their trolling in Japanese sites are actually far worse, than any Koreans in English web sites. Japanese rightists also are experts at organizing Youtube videos, making up anti Korean videos by scanning for every obscure news out of Korea to use in their propaganda. They rival the fifty cents Chinese keyboard warriors sponsored by the Chinese government. Trollings in English sites by Japanese are less evident but they are far more subtle because they prepare meticulously and they use facts (often mislead facts and false made up facts that look like legit) while Koreans are more emotionally charged, making them susceptible to fall into traps laid by Japanese trolls. Just because you don’t see the Japanese trolls here, doesn’t mean anything. You can bet, as we speak, the 2ch, and all the other sites are translating all these words into Japanese and posted on their sites in matter of hours.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            Why would I care what Japanese say to each other in Japanese on Japanese websites?

            That isn’t any different from Americans making racist comments to each other about Arabs, or Arabs making racist comments to each other about Jews, and so and so forth. It’s not admirable, but the point is that they’re not going out of their way to promulgate their bigotries to unsuspecting, neutral third-parties. It’d be like an Indian telling me how evil Pakistan is, as if I really give a sh*t about their internal squabbling.

            I really can’t understand how anyone NOT living in Japan could care so much about what the Japanese think or say in the privacy of their own insularity. As an American, I know for a fact that Serbians hate me and my country, but I don’t give a f*ck because I have no intention of visiting Serbia. Now, of course, when it’s a large, influential population with significant military power and the ability to conduct war, then their private bigotries can become an issue (e.g., Arab anti-Americanism, or American Sinophobia), but Japan is an aging, economically stagnant country constitutionally bound to pacifism. Its median age is 45, and it has one of the lowest birthrates in the world. How in the world is that intimidating? Seriously…

          • chucky3176

            “I really can’t understand how anyone NOT living in Japan could care so much about what the Japanese think or say”

            Read my post up there. I’ve already explained it. I mostly comment when the topic involves Koreans. Japanese netizens are not active in English sites, because they are unable to participate, not because they can’t. It only means there are far more Korean participants who can speak English.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            “Japanese netizens are not active in English sites, because they are unable to participate, not because they can’t.”

            Erm, what’s the difference between “unable” and “can’t”? I think that might be a typo. Perhaps you meant this:

            “Japanese netizens are not active in English sites, because they are unable to participate, not because they don’t want to.”

            If that *is* what you meant, then given that the underlying assumption is true (that they are unable to participate), that’s still at best an unproven allegation, and not a verifiable fact. But it’s not true, as the 2012 EF English Proficiency Index identified South Korea and Japan as being practically identical with respect to English proficiency.

        • EightNineBall

          Haven’t read much of Mr. Ed’s and Lillian’s post but I’ve seen Cleo’s. Everyone agrees that he/she is a very strange, obsessed and disturbed troll even when chinasmack was the only website for East Asia. I’ve read your argument with “guest”, and while I agree with your points there, he was quite the debater. And he said himself that he wasn’t Chinese.

          So instead of putting all or even most of the blame on the Koreans and Chinese, the biggest callouts should be on the disgruntled western expats and westerners in general since they outnumber everyone else AND are the ones most likely to stir the pot in the first place.

          Chucky is right. Native Koreans don’t even make a fraction of chinasmack and the sister sites posts. I’d say the same goes for native Chinese and Japanese.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

            So you’re saying all these racist comments attacking the Japanese due to their historical wartime atrocities are coming from disgruntled Western expats?

          • EightNineBall

            Of course not. A lot of those comments come from ‘Chinese’ posters, but it’s not unusual for someone to pretend to be Japanese or Chinese or Korean or whatever and stir the pot too.

            What I’m saying is it’s often a group of expats unrelated to the issue, and certainly English speaking who start the fire just like in the link I posted. Why do you think they do it? Most of the comments countering them are reactionary and quite ridiculous. I find calling out for war and wiping out populations disgusting TBH so in this we agree. It’s not racism, just pure savagery in many cases. Some are just too stupid to be believable, obviously from a troll. There’s one article on Japan Daily Press too which was written by a self-proclaimed White American male which started a shitstorm amongst Chinese and ‘expats’. Japanese participation was non-existent, yet again and just as you observed.

            Don’t get me wrong. I’m not talking about disgruntled ‘White’ expats causing all the trouble and most have good intentions. The trolls could be anyone, but because they are abusing the privilege of anonymity, we can never be sure aside from the fact they speak English and they are the true racists. That’s why I can at least respect trolls that make it clear where they are from and actually like people that can offer constructive criticism while doing away with anonymity since they have a genuine concern.

      • Iinette lee

        Respected for what? For able to copy and paste only articles serve to back up his garbage racist remarks? I tell you he knows nothing about what’ s happening on the chinese website and what’s going on with the chinese, nor can he read what the chinese are saying on the chinese website.

        • dk2020

          You hear me really talkin trash about Chinese except for you specifically? I like seeing you whine like a victim though, so pathetic yuckface .. ewwww u have acne huh?

          • linette lee

            You are such a retard.

          • dk2020

            :) ..

          • dk2020

            tell yao dailo i said wuuusup in china ..

        • chucky3176

          Everyone, let’s have a little poll here. Everyone, vote up on this comment if you think I’m a better contributor than linette. Vote this comment down, if you think linette is better. I’ll start by voting myself up once, since I know linette will vote me down. So that makes it even to start, and make it fair.

          • besudesu

            You guys…I’m only sanctioning this if someone can give the poll a snappy title.

          • linette lee

            Wow…look at all these koreans voting for chucky..haha lol. This is not youtube. I know you koreans love to click click click refresh delete cookies and click click click to up the view count.

            And no, I’ve never used the vote button on any site. I don’t like to click on anything. I am not Korean.

          • chucky3176

            Youtube has a strict count system which they put in recently to throw out all the votes that are generated by robots. Sony and few Japanese Jpop videos was found guilty recently and bunch of their video’s counts were thrown out and their ratings went into toilet. Kpop videos on the other hand, are enjoying more popularity than ever. So what you’re charging is not only unsubstantiated, it just shows how much you know, which is nothing. I notice you’ve already clicked a down vote. Besides, there are probably far more Chinese in Japancrush than Koreans. And lastly, I don’t know why the mod has not banned you yet, with your constant racist remarks against Koreans when I have tried my best to stay away from you. This is after the mod has warned both of us. Yet you continue to ply your trade, one sided.

      • EightNineBall

        And inspite of all this, I actually think chucky is quite an intelligent individual that speaks his mind. Some might not really like to hear what he has to say, but he at least is honest.

        Pokochaaaan’s question was stupid in the first place since there is no proof that the bad rumors are spread by Koreans and Chinese. The way I see it, [most] of the inflammatory posts aren’t even started by C,J or K. Since there are no discernible Japanese here, most of the very few posts coming from the Koreans and Chinese are reactionary and coming from only a few individuals.

        Seeing only what you want to see. That’s a good line and one that contains an element of truth.

        This goes for a lot of the posters on this site and the other sister sites.

  • dk2020

    Japanese families don’t have the elderly move in with them? The first born son in Korean families are supposed to take care of the parents. I think thats why my grandma had nine kids to make sure we all take care of her which we all do .. of course she’s from the war generation and there was a baby boom back then too.. I would never put my mom in a nursing home ..

  • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

    We will all grow old and live without dignity.
    We should all just die at the age of sixty…
    or try to stay young forever

  • chucky3176

    Matt, Sillian,

    I never speak smack bad about Japan or China, unless it involves South
    Korea in the article, unless Japanese/Chinese netizen commentators in the
    article are making comments about South Korea, if some participant in
    these forums mentions South Korea someway. I don’t know why you get
    this ideal that I’m making bad comments about Japan just for the sake of
    making bad comments about Japan. If you look at the Japancrush posts
    since November, there have been exactly fourteen Korea related articles
    that appeared in Japancrush, which is almost five articles a month about
    Korea in Japancrush. And there have been also non-Korea related articles
    where Japanese netizens mentions Koreans usually in negative ways. And as for this topic, it was Brett who brought South Korea up first, in another negative way. And he’s not Korean. I merely mentioned that South Korea had nothing to do with this, and Linette the Chinese appears out of nowhere to offer up her usual shit backed up by nothing. So what do you expect from me? Do I not have the right to comment on comments made about South Koreans?

  • Eidolon

    The only anomaly here is, in fact, Japancrush. As Matt cogently stated, Japanese do not visit this site, nor do expats in Japan. Instead, this site is frequented by Chinese and Korean nationalists, who in turn are responsible for making it biased against / hostile towards the Japanese, thereby making it even less attractive to Japanese. This makes it quite different from Koreabang and Chinasmack, both of which are frequented firstly by people who live in / are from Korea and China, respectively.

    Of course, this is not evidence against Japanese netizens being less virulently nationalist – because there is no judging what is not here. Nor are people here saying all that they’re thinking, because the moderation has gotten tighter, especially on Japancrush and Koreabang. To draw models about East Asian netizens from these sites is therefore fruitless, though to answer the question of why Chinese and Koreans show up frequently on Japancrush to bash Japanese – it’s because they’re the people who are visiting this site, not Japanese.

    • chucky3176

      The real question is, why are Japanese talking so much trash about Koreans and Chinese in their news sites? Look at Koreabang and Chinasmack. There’s hardly any stories on Japan in either of those forums, nor are those people talking much about Japanese, who are basically being thought of as obnoxious people turning into right wing, therefore just ignored. As for Japancrush here, we’ve had 14 stories on Korea since the beginning of this forum. If you’re going to have so many stories on Korea and China here, then it’s only natural that Koreans and Chinese would be attracted to the trash talk done by Japanese netizens. What do you really expect to happen when you throw thrash all over your home, and invite the flies to dinner?

      • Kate

        Chucky I think the real question is, Why do you care so much about what the japanese and chinese netizens think? =^••^=

      • hun

        I’m not gonna disagree that there’s A LOT of japanese nationalists talking shit because i’ve seen this first hand browsing japanese articles that has nothing to do with china/korea but it kind of goes both ways with those three countries. I don’t think comparing the three sister sites is fair because it only takes the most popular article and translates it, for all we know there could be many nationalistic posts on either countries but it just never makes the cut to be translated. Still, CS and KB does have japan related discussions and even those tend to be even harsher than japanese nationalists bashing those two countries, but thats about it really, words and protesting. I haven’t seen anything about the japanese nationalists escalating into something bigger(send me links if im wrong tho). So all in all i think all that barking from the nationalists are miniscule when you got chinese anti-japan product riots and koreans not letting japanese officials in the country to discuss important matters.

      • besudesu

        Well, Chucky, I don’t think it’s true that there are hardly any stories about the Japanese on koreaBANG for a start, and even in the translated comments for articles that are completely unrelated to Japan, you frequently see comments like ‘jjeokbari’ and ‘monkey’. As for chinaSMACK, I think that China is just too diverse for things like this to even bother Chinese netizens in the same ways as they do Japanese and Korean. I’ve said this to you before, but the way that commenting works on Japanese site IS NOT the same as it is on Korean sites. Japan doesn’t have Nate, Daum, or Naver. It pretty much only has Yahoo!Japan for news comments, and then comments are only available for certain articles, not all. You don’t have the same search metrics as you do for Korea. This is why 2ch has so much influence on the Japanese internet (and notice that I said internet, not society.) Therefore, the sector of Japanese society represented online in comments is far smaller than what we can encounter in the Korean case. I know this for a fact because I was a contributor and editor on koreaBANG before japanCRUSH. So I feel that you are making comparisons of convenience, and dragging this site into them, without actually bothering to consider on a very fundamental level that internet commenting does not work in the same way in each nation. And you are choosing to believe that internet comments are a true reflection of a diversity of social opinion, despite the fact that this is far too simplistic to warrant any kind of academic or political consideration whatsoever. If you want to use things to defend a nationalist viewpoint, fine. But doing this with a total lack of critical thinking can only ever damage an already weak argument.

        • Rutim

          Hurry up! Show Chucky TBS material from yesterday’s morning ;) Theres no time to lose!

  • Alice Pan

    I thought their nursing homes would be better since they have such a strong sense of respect for elders but no, they’re just as bad as ours…that’s sad to hear.

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